There is something that I have had to learn to deal with in my day to day and I still have not quite gotten used to it, and that is that it bothers me a lot that a person with a certain power believes that everyone has to think (or think) like her.
On why Gnome not include the tool gnome-tweak-tools by default there has been a lot of speculation, but today I meet an article which explains the real reasons for this decision. The author makes his opinion very clear, which I share 100%:
First of all, I blame Gnome for one reason and one reason only. The Gnome Foundation lacks in communicating with the public through a way that cannot be ignored. When Gnome claims something, it should immediately sound like the last person on Earth. Instead of Gnome, the biggest things stay hidden on the mailing lists or Planets.
That is, when in Gnome Important changes occur, only some people find out through the mailing lists, because they do not have an official means in which to transmit these communications, and where their users can issue their criteria of agreeing or not.
This is not new, we already saw it in yesterday's post about the changes in Nautilus and to tell the truth, I had never paid attention to this facet that does not bother to hide Gnome Foundation. Now, let's go back to the initial topic, what really bothers me about all this, for which I recommend reading (even if it's in English) Article Where did I get all this information from, since it explains the history of where all this comes from that I show you now:
Following this lead Gnome developer Andreas Nilsson posts a slightly strange link (islinuxaboutchoice.com) which leads to an old discussion on the Fedora mailing lists. If you are lazy to read, Adam Jackon a little similar situation, what features should be included by default (around juju) concludes:
"But the string of logic for" Linux is about choosing "to" send everything and letting the user choose how they want their sound not to work "starts with fallacy and ends with disaster."
Nilsson's comment was not very helpful, which makes his point of view clear, but does not explain why. Luckily, what Nilsson doesn't do, Allan does. I think this is the first time that someone from Gnome explained the reasons for not including a default theme customization option in public.
Allan Day says:
“System Settings already offers background selection. The color settings could be an advantage - we were going to need to discuss how it would fit into the overall design of the system setup. However, I am totally against customizing gtk / shell / pointer as well as extensions. Some of the reasons for this (this is not exhaustive): «
- It makes it more difficult for third party application developers to orient our platform.
- User experience degrades - most alternative themes are of relatively poor quality. We don't have the resources to make a good set of high-quality themes
- The default themes are not just a matter of aesthetics - they are designed to convey the desired user experience.
- The default themes are designed to work in combination with each other - the shell theme and the gtk theme have been designed with each other in mind.
- The extensions are essentially incompatible. Putting them in the system settings says 'these are supported as part of the system'.
- We already have a website for installing extensions - this is better than what they are proposing for extensions here.
and Allan continues:
These are all reasons why these things shouldn't be a part of the default system. They could be a part of the adjustment tool.
Just because some customization is desirable doesn't mean that everything should be customizable (I totally disagree with Maslow on the theoretical ground, I should add). This is not to say that additional forms of customization cannot be evaluated, of course. A screensaver with a photo gallery is a possibility that has been discussed, for example. «
Apparently Allan has not been around Deviantart, because there are many topics gtk and to Gnome Shell that have much more quality than the one that comes by default. It would also be interesting to ask why a customization tool Gnome it would degrade the user experience. And finally, I would like to ask you a few questions:
- How many people have told you that you are right in all the arguments you offer?
- Do most users actually think that, or only developers?
- If you don't have a team in charge of the design and accessibility of the theme, why don't you ask for help?
- If the extensions are incompatible between versions, whose fault is it really, the extension developers, or the Gnome they didn't just create a standard?
- Don't you think that if third-party application developers spend work integrating with Gnome, it is for the simple fact that they have not provided a clearer documentation or API?
- And finally, why don't you consult with the users of Gnome that in the end, they are the most affected with every change they can make? Or are they following the philosophy of Apple Lossless Audio CODEC (ALAC),?
Anyway, I'm taking ill will to this project that is not healthy at all. Hopefully and they realize that their truth, their motives, their reasons, are not absolute. I hope you remember that not everyone uses a tablet, but above all, that nobody uses Gnome on a tablet. But most importantly, hopefully they will agree that in the end, they develop for millions of users who do not have to agree with their decisions.
The solution for all Gnome problems: KDE
KDE, Xfce, LXDE, Razor QT, E17, * box …………. Even MATE can work
+1
Regarding aesthetics, cleanliness, quality and other things, I think it is the best option but I do not quite like it although I am always tempted to try it but my lab does not allow me to use it to its full potential.
Beyond the usability and customization of the environment, where KDE is unrivaled in any OS, not to mention the quality of KDE applications against those of Gnome: K3B vs Brasero, Amarok vs Rhythmbox, Gwenview vs F-Spot, Dolphin vs Nautilus, etc., etc.
Unite (?)
Come on, from the "users are fools" of yesteryear (and not so long ago) we go to "fools and sheep" (because of either you use it as I say or you look for life). Nothing new under the sun… Well, almost nothing 🙂
Now Linus Torvalds will raise his anger to the umpteenth power
You are right. And with all the reason in the world he could get pissed off ... 😀
I hope I do….
Well I think it already has https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/UkoAaLDpF4i
Luckily one follows him (and hardly knowing English XD)
That anger is not current, it is from before
https://blog.desdelinux.net/linus-torvalds-vs-extensiones-de-gnome/
Too bad that in the free software environment there are people so closed-minded 🙁
The most beautiful thing is that there are millions of users who depend on these changes. Sure, there will always be the one who can make a fork, but what one always hopes is to have the support and support of the official developers.
How ugly what is happening with Gnome. It is nostalgic to remember how the project started and how it is now in terms of its philosophy.
I hope that, at least, applications developed for Gnome maintain a high rate of desktop independence, so that when you want to install on other gtk desktops (like LXDE or Xfce), you don't have to install Gnome media in addition (as with many KDE applications).
Greetings.
I am a user in accordance with the decision: D. Sometimes changing the theme leads to horrible glitches in any operating system. But good is everyone's taste.
Greetings.
I want to know why do you complain so much about gnome? Most have used gimp or Inkscape in KDE and both are gnome tools, they have used firefox and it is written in part in gtk +, I have used KDE and I can say that it is not perfect, it has many more options than gnome of course it does, but it also has flaws and don't tell me no. Many options are being added to gnome not only are they removed and if you do not believe me see it in the gnome git http://git.gnome.org/browse/?s=idle We are a community we must be united, KDE is an excellent Desktop Environment and GNOME too, please be a little more neutral in the articles: D.
Greetings.
KDE is not mentioned in the article and it does not say that KDE is better.
I'm with you, KDE is not perfect, I see some details that could be improved. Share with us the bugs you have found in KDE. It's okay that we only read the bugs that GNOME has, the other environments also have their (different) problems.
@proper: Sorry I know that KDE is not mentioned in the article but I know perfectly well that whoever publishes it uses that environment and I suppose that is why they despise the Gnome desktop environment so much.
@ Windóusico: The most serious bugs that I saw in KDE are in plasma, sometimes the panel appeared as invisible above instead of below, sometimes the notifications were annoying to have them stored in the panel and having to close them, there was lack of integration in some applications If you close a panel or a panel widget like the task manager, sometimes you don't know what to do (it has not happened to me, it happened to friends to install KDE), sometimes widgets disappear or they change their place in the panel.
That's it.
Greetings.
I understand that it bothers you that the author speaks badly of the Gnome environment, but that's why they are opinion articles, therefore neutrality has nothing to do with it. And as for Elav, you are wrong it does not use KDE it uses gtk in general either on its main desktop with Xfce or some other times with Cinnamon.
The integration that KDE does of the GTK2 and GTK3 applications is brilliant, look at the screenshot I just took from my main desktop:
http://i.imgur.com/YMIMZ.png
Then I was wrong. Thanks for the clarification Rayonant.
Greetings.
Exactly .. Thanks Rayonant 😀
You are bothered by the default settings. To start you must lock the graphic elements in Plasma. If you don't like the default notifier you can configure it to your liking or use another like Colibri. Integration with GTK + applications is a problem because those who develop GTK + only think about their baby. Still, its appearance can be improved (oxygen-gtk, Firefox add-ons,…). If you load a panel, you can add a new one very easily (you should block the graphic elements). KDE has things that could be improved (like Nepomuk) but you can easily customize it. GNOME Shell is a rigid environment that imposes unique thinking.
Thanks Windóusico: D, I didn't know about colibri, I didn't know that you have to block the graphic elements, I had already heard about oxygen-gtk and I never knew how to use nepomuk XD. Hopefully Gnome-Shell will be less rigid in a few years.
Greetings.
Jojojojo .. Error, I only used KDE a long time ago for two weeks .. I have always used Environments written in Gtk.
The solution is very easy… ..
|
|
|
V
SolusOS
And the nonsense is over …….
I think the same thing will happen to Ikey as Clem. He's going to be so fed up with gnome tweaks that he'll make his own environment.
I say the same thing, the point is that you will have to go patching almost everything at all times for each mischief they commit in Gnome, in the long run I suppose that it will develop its own environment.
In fact, I think that's the path that they will eventually take with SolusOS, either a fork of Gnome or a Shell, they will end up with their own DE.
Completely agreeoo .. !!
But be careful with Giscard, if he sees your comment he will already get furious again !! hehehe ..
The thing is strong ... Now Master Torvalds will give you everything.
It is as elav <° Linux says "what one always hopes is to have the support and support of the official developers." But unfortunately we will have to resort to the patches that are being added to SolusOS or use Cinnamon (which by the way they did think a bit about the user and can be comfortably customized).
What indecision!
Why do users say as if we all think the same? As if we all disagree with the ideas of GNOME, it is innovating, the other environments are thinking of old users clinging to a single way of using the computer. It's my point of view.
Greetings.
Obviously I respect your opinion but, there are many who were not satisfied with the changes of Gnome, obviously they are not all, but if there are many, I dare say that the majority. Innovating is relative, certainly its interface is different from other desktop environments, but you must also see who it is for. Regardless of the interface, I think the problem is one of concept and "forms" and the community was practically not consulted for the change. Regards.
You are right Angelo Gabriel Marquez Maldonado in everything you have said, I just hope that one day GNOME will be seen again as a serious and professional desktop environment and not as it is now.
Greetings.
I do see it as a serious environment, for me the problem is not that Gnome 3 does not look professional, any environment with a couple of hours on it seems so, the problem with Gnome 3 is that it is ugly and less usable, which for example , Gnome 2, which was also ugly, but it was very customizable and usable.
The problem that Gnome has right now with users is a communication problem with them, which has given it that bad image.
What do you mean by GNOME innovating? Touchscreen environments have been around for a long time. The problem is not that it proposes a revolutionary environment. What touches the nose is that an environment for GNU / Linux is not easily customizable and presents itself as the king of minimalism. In KDE you can use the computer in several ways.
It is just an opinion maybe it is wrong but I have not seen another desktop environment that is changing the menus so that they are in the panel that could be an example of innovation on the part of GNOME. And if I know that in KDE you can use the Plasma Desktop and Plasma Notebook mode in addition to the many plasmoids that can be added and that the panel you can change to the place you want along with all the widgets that are in it and you can also add more of a panel. I like GNOME better so I say that it innovates as I said, maybe I'm wrong.
Greetings.
GNOME Shell is liked by many people. We do not think the same about what it means to innovate, but you cannot deny that leaving some advanced options at hand (they could hide them somewhere discreet) does not detract from the modernity of the whole. You haven't mentioned Plasma Active which is KDE's touch screen environment. Try it: D.
Innovating does not necessarily mean radically changing a concept. In fact, Shell is pretty inefficient compared to Unity or KDE in terms of ease of movement, needless to say in consumption next to something like XFCE.
The point is that in fact Gnome does not really innovate since innovations do not always have to do with the concept of environment but with functions and I only see a changed environment with the same functions (and less) as always.
The truth is it is better to add linux mint repos and download the MATE, which is not the official linuxmint and much better than the gnome shell and it even looks better than the old gnome 2, but there everyone has their tastes.
That leads many people to accuse Gnome for the one thing that actually Gnome isn't. A standardized “company” product similar to Apple's logic of “that we made, that you'll get”. That's complete wrong and the truth is exactly the opposite. Gnome3 is the only OS that provides so many ways for serious customization, via extensions, via themes via forking the core Shell's JS files.
even here the original in English and since I am bilingual without using google translate I translate it: this has made many people accuse gnome of the only thing that it is not: a standardized company like apple »what we have done is what you have ». this is completely wrong and the truth is exactly the opposite. gnome3 is the only OS that delivers many customization ways, via extensions, themes, forks etc.
And I do not say more because I could translate the whole article, I use GNOME3 with the shell and I have put the window decoration that I felt like, the icons that I like and the color and theme of GTK that I liked the most, I do not put extensions xq I do not like excessive, I want and I have a clean and simple desk
Of course, the GNOME are responsible for so many forks, themes and extensions.
Man, as well as many ways ... is that comparing it again with KDE, in it you can also change the themes of windows, graphics, icons, GTK, extend it ... the difference is that it is much easier to do it from a graphical tool that if you have to go around copying and editing files and folders in X directory by hand, that's what we mean.
The only OS that delivers lots of customization paths? Seriously? It is true that using CSS and JS for themes has been a "great" idea, but hey, all of us who have used most of the DE in GNU / Linux, we know that Gnome is not the only one that allows modifying it, creating forks and others ...
Yes, but this is the correct English / Spanish translation of what was said there, there will be better or worse options without a doubt but it is not so bad GNOME 3 nor so good solus OS
also gnome3 is not designed for tablets, it is made for those who have a computer with at least 4 g of ram, a graphics card of at least 1 g and 4 core more or less, designed and made to take advantage of a 64 bit or 32 bit makina with optimal and clean performance, neither ubuntu nor canonical have abandoned desktop users, it is enough to criticize GNOME3 SHELL and worship KDE (to name an example) as if it were the only god, fanaticism is blindness, use what suits you on the desk and do not take it out ... time will tell who takes the cat to the water
One question, does anyone know what the gnome developers think of all the shells and environments based on it that have come out (unity, pantheon, the one from soluos, cinnamon) ??
For them it must be great xD
The technology behind Gnome3 is very flexible, and being able to use the language that "I please" with the peace of mind of not getting mixed up with the glue code (be said, all thanks to GObject's introspection), they an adaptive development environment.
That adaptability does not want to be integrated into Gnome-Shell ... ok, if they have not complained that everyone wants to make their own alternative to the Shell it is that they surely do not care, or it is even what they had planned 😛
I don't entirely agree with Elav's opinion, and it sure is because I'm a developer too xD
The fact that they are not interested in creating customization tools is completely respectable, especially on the subject of support. It is easier for a company or a government to invest in developing software "on Gnome" (that is, using APIs like GObject and that), when they have a less customizable final development environment (yes ... apple ... that's why there they are encouraged to program so many, and that's why there is $$$ there xD).
The issue of obsolete APIs is normal, it changes from version to version, because it has not yet stabilized. You have to think that the lifetime of Gnome3 I don't think is less than about 6 or 8 years.
reading these articles all I do is think about switching to xfce ... I don't like what I tried, maybe if one of them will teach me to customize I can make it more beautiful, but as it comes I don't like it, it's very windows ...
gnome shell as it comes by default is quite uncomfortable, as in the user menu at the top right that the shutdown and restart options did not come ... you had to log out first, very uncomfortable ... the accessibility icon that does not interest me, and a A lot of things are more than "solved" with extensions ...
shutting down the computer is simple; press the power button on your makina and the option to restart or turn off will appear on the screen
In reverse
Windows is very KDE 😉
:at the:
Well, look that KDE has an intuitive and easy-to-use tool to customize the desktop, and it's called Systemsettings (or Control Center in the Spanish translation) ... from there you can easily apply graphic themes, windows, icons, change to taste the pattern of the colors of the windows, the typographic fonts, you can even add graphic effects ... and everything graphically.
Every environment has its pros and cons.
It is clear that if they continue like this, there will be a great migration to other environments (KDE, MATE, Cinnamon, XFCE, LXDE, etc)
Note: I was a Gnome 2 user at the time and I didn't really like Gnome 3 from the beginning ...
I am now giving GNOME a test, but I find Cinnamon much more comfortable than Shell, not because of the way I use the desktop to which I am used, but because it is easier to configure and customize it, because aesthetically it is more elegant and also because it is less heavy.
Did you see the slight changes in empathy's contact list yet? http://blog.desmottes.be/post/2012/06/15/New-Empathy-contact-list.
Greetings.
It is true that GNOME is passing the opinions of its hundreds of loyal users through the c ***, but it is not the only DE that exists: there is KDE, Razor-QT, XFCE, LXDE, Elementary Pantheon, light managers such as OpenBox and the ones that try by all means to recover / adapt the GNOME 2 like SolusOS, Cinnamon and MATE. So there is no need to worry, let's enjoy the variety that GNU / Linux offers
"The Gnome Foundation lacks communication with the public"
And this is a common denominator in opens source applications? (irony)
I am sure that if they listen to us, and take notes of some things that users say (it is absurd to think that they do not do it), but not everything and they do not have to, they are creating and offering a product, they have a work schedule and they are doing well.
Yes, it lacks customization of the most basic, because not even the size of the fonts can be changed, but those extensions that mostly do the same in a different way and destroy the concept of the Shell, I think there are plenty of them.
I think we have to give it the opportunity because we are in front of a desk without stereotypes, extraordinarily fast and totally stable, excellent for work environments.
...
"Commercial image" is one of the most important elements of a product's identity. It is one of the most difficult elements to achieve and it is one of the most expensive in advertising, that has been understood by Gnome, it has been understood by all the most important distro that implement Gnome 3 Shell as the default desktop and also Ubuntu creating its own identity.
Changing colors, transforming, moving, personalizing everything and other arguments that they offer you as advantages are nothing more than protagonists of the tragedy of 2% GNU / Linux, (let's see if we agree on this) you have heard or said at some point;
"Put it like Windows", "put it like MacOS" but ... have you ever heard?
- Put it as GNU / Linux -
I've heard put it as Ubuntu, Android, Chakra, Mandriva, GNOME 2, ... It depends a lot on what the subject knows. There are many who ignore the aspect of Windows 8 or Mac OS.
finally an equanimous and reasoned opinion, and personally if I love GNU / LINUX in general and UBUNTU in particular it is because it is neither windows nor mac, it is different and it already has its differentiated brand
gnome is no longer what gnome was
I don't really know what to say about all this. I have read all the comments related to this topic, and I understand the advantages of stability in an environment that is as closed at the moment as Gnome3 is and I understand the challenge of developing a proposal that greatly defies the past. but I still think that they have reached a certain radicalism, with respect to the previous version of Gnome. He was a big fan of this environment, but I have looked for other options. I'm not blind and I see KDE's flaws, but for now, it gives me the flexibility that Gnome 2 found previously, which I honestly thought was great. I don't support ideas like MATE, which I think is a throwback, although I do welcome Cinnamon and Unity. the truth, the wonder of Free Software is the possibility to choose.
I can't wait for SolusOS 2 to launch, with that I mean it all. I can't wait to send Gnome Shell and Unity to hell.
To pretend within free software that we are the ones who adapt to the machine and not the other way around is to renounce its principles of freedom, the reason why we are here.
Well I see that in these parts the main theme begins to be "All against Gnome." A pity, when it is, by far, the best option for the future. You have to get used to it ...
In these parts they talk about everything a little, and if Gnome is the issue that is bothering me now and I want to talk about what am I going to do?
Because who says so? 😕
You have to know how to read between the lines… .. It is not an imposition (I am not one of those who indoctrinate anything) but a piece of advice from my point of view.
Okay, maybe I didn't express myself in the best way, but I understood what you meant ..
The best option for the future… according to whom?
Amen!
Not a long time ago…. Linux Mint for a tube…. and now…. SolusOS must be promoted. I'm not saying it's wrong…. that each one do what they want with their things…. but it seems to me that a little bit of impartiality and objectivity would be good for the blo… .. there are already many places for fanaticisms and the like. Before I used to learn things and it was very useful…. but now you only come across discussions like «…. Well, mine more and better…. ».
totally agree jose
It seems to me that this blog is quite impartial, even though most of its members use the same distributions (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora). Jose, and the rest of the readers who read this comment, I am not forcing anyone to use SolusOS. I like the work that this distribution is doing, and if I have to write 70 more posts talking about it, I will. You are a user of Ubuntu, a distribution that at the time came to everyone even in the soup. It lost popularity and now that's up to others ... That's life. First linuxmint, then LMDE and now SolusOS.
While…. but that this does not mean it against the other solutions, as is happening. I think we should have a little respect for the users of other alternatives; it is very fucked up to get to a site, as an Ubuntu user, and that…. if Ubuntu is crap, if it is slow, that if it pats so much…. And more bleeding is that we are all in the same boat. What always ends up happening (and not only here) are the typical nonsensical discussions about which distro is better when there is simply no better distro than another…. it all depends on the user, their habits, preferences and hardware… .. and nobody has the absolute truth. That there is talk about emerging distros, perfect ... .. but it seems that the rest should disappear from the face of the earth.
It would be a distinctive touch of this blog not to fall for this nonsense and discuss serious things, problem solving…. regardless of the distro ... and I already say, with respect to users of other alternatives. I think.
A greeting.
I understand your point of view Jose, and it seems to me that on this site we have addressed topics like the ones you propose, but as I told you before, one thing has nothing to do with the other. Yes SolusOS I like it, if I've tried it, if it's based on my favorite distro, why couldn't I talk about it? Here, at least I, I have never spoken ill of Ubuntu, or I have not said things that everyone does not know, to give you an example. I wish we had an editor for each of the available distros, but that's not the case. And I can't talk about Mandriva o Centos, when I have never tried them.
However, although these articles are opinion pieces (and do not carry any kind of impartiality), I do not think I have fallen into absurd comparisons or that detract from the rest of the distributions. Or so I think.
Hey.
Yes, I understand what you are saying and your suggestion is completely valid, in fact it is what has distinguished us for quite some time, and perhaps we have decreased the number of technical articles a bit yes.
It happens that to publish opinion articles you just have to sit down and write, while to publish technical articles you have to first research, learn, know ... and then write. For a few weeks both elav and I have been quite busy with personal things, that's where this problem can come from.
On criticizing some distros, here we are not one of those many pro-Ubuntu blogs that exist, where they always publish any news or information (however minimal it may be) related to this distro, nor are we anti-Ubuntu and we understand how much it is distro has contributed to our community.
But yes, we like to tell the truths of each distro, that is why from our point of view (which does not have to be the most correct or absolute) we express what we think is wrong, or what is not.
Anyway, sorry for extending myself so much 😀
Greetings friend.
You understood me. Thank you. I hope it returns a little to the origins, even if it means less activity.
Greetings.
Fanaticism where?
Those of us who are on the blog right now are the most impartial and those who most respect the comments of others.
I use Archlinux with LXDE + Fluxbox and if I ever speak ill of another distro or environment it will be because I had my reasons, not fanaticism.
I apologize if this comment may offend someone.
How funny they think of GNOME. What saddens me the most is that they are doing all the shit they want with GTK +.
Off-topic: You could have avoided Google Translate to translate the original blog post.
I don't see fanaticism around here. I am a KDE user, but I am not blind to its particular shortcomings and problems. I love OpenBox, Next Step and Unity. And I enjoyed Gnome 2 for years. But if you read most of the comments here, they're detractors of Gnome 3, not because of its design, but because of its current limitations.
I make the clarification, Nextstep uses WindowMaker as a manager.
My case is also similar. Since my beginnings in Linux I am a happy user of KDE, but I also loved GNOME 2, and lately also XFCE. I enjoyed GNOME for many months and now on my laptop I am giving GNOME 3 a chance (through Cinnamon, though, although the first days were with Shell), while on my desktop I enjoy KDE. I have my criticisms of everyone, and the ones I can do about GNOME, it is not because I am a fan of KDE, but because objectively it deserves them.
For something there are options like KDE, LXDE or you can use Gnome with Cinnnamon and it works very well.
I am using Gnome shell and already cinnamon in Fedora 17.
http://digitalpcpachuca.blogspot.mx/2012/07/instalar-escritorio-cinnamon-en-fedora.html
Greetings.