Lennart vs Linux Community (Herr Poettering's open fight)

Yesterday Lennart Poettering will have gotten up on his left foot and wrote this post on Google+ I'm translating them for you. Like in the post systemd vs intelligenceI'll add a few links

Much of the Open Source community tries to promote the community as a happy place for the outdoors. Where contributions are valued only for their technical quality, and all meet at conferences for beers.

Well, it doesn't. It's a sick place to be.

I don't usually talk about this much, and therefore it seems to me that people are not really aware of this, but yes, the Open Source community is full of assholes, and I am probably one of their favorite targets more than the others. I receive hostile emails for hacking into Open Source. People started multiple "petitions" on petition websites, asking me to stop working (google it). Recently people started collecting Bitcoins to hire a thug for me (That happened!). The other day, an idiot I post a «song» on YouTube, a chilling work, full of expletives about me and suggestions of violence. People create websites boycotting my projects, containing very personal attacks. On IRC, people sometimes send me a / msg, with disgusting content, and references to 4chan-style art. And there is more. Much more.

I'm used to rough discussion on mailing lists, and yes, when I was young I didn't always stay technical on flamewars, but today I'm very good at it, sometimes articulate, but never personal. I have thick skin (and so do most of those who get involved with systemd, apparently), and it seems to me that that plays an important role in why we managed to bring systemd to success, despite all the pressure in the opposite direction. But every now and then, I have to stay away and say "Wow, what a terrible community Linux has! ».

The internet is full of insaneno doubt, so one could underestimate all of that on the grounds that the Open Source community is no different than any other community on the Internet or offline. But I do not think so. I'm pretty sure there are certain things that encourage bad behavior. On the one hand, there are certain communities where letting go of anger seems to be much more accepted, communities that attract a certain class of people (Hi Gentoo!) more than others. (Yes, the people who post those things usually say clearly what community they come from).

But more importantly, I would actually put some blame on certain circles of people who play an important role in kernel development, and above all Linus Torvalds himself. Many consider him a role model, but he is a very bad one. If he writes words like “[specific people]… it should be retroactively aborted. Who the fuck does shit like this? How come they didn't die as babies, considering they're so stupid to find a tit to suckle? " (google it), that's certainly bad. But what I find particularly abominable is the fact that defends him regularly, and promotes it as an efficient way of maintaining a community. (But it's not just Linus, it's a certain group of people around him who use the exact same style, some of whom semi-publicly even fantasize about the best ways to… well, kill me).

But no, it is not an efficient way to run a community. If Linux was successful, that happened despite, not because of that behavior. I'm pretty sure the damage done by this is obvious, not only does it sour the tone in the Linux community, but it teaches new contributors to adopt the same style, but only if it doesn't scare them in the first place.

In other words: The fish rots from the head.

My note: The phrase has nothing to do with the phrase "The fish dies from the mouth." It really means that if an organization fails, the leader is to blame.

I don't mind using strong language, or using words like "shit", I use it all the time, It's not about that. I must simply say that it will stay there, because what happens in reality is much worse, and much more detestable.

If you are a newcomer to Linux, or grow a thick skin. Or you run away, it's not a friendly place to be. It's sad that it is so, but it is.

The Linux community is dominated by western and straight white men who are currently in their thirties or forties. I fit that pattern perfectly, And the trash they pour on me is ugly. I can only imagine that it is much worse for members of minorities, or people from different cultural backgrounds, particularly those where losing face is a big problem.

You know, I can deal with all that shit, and I think in a way that with the energy with which we implement the changes that we propose we call the opposition, so this post is not intended to ask for sympathy. The main point I want to make with this is correct a few things about our communities, and how they are perceived. Open Source is not a kindergarten. Open Source is ugly in several ways, and people should be aware of this.

Not everyone in the Linux community is like this, the vast majority is not. Not even all of our different communities have a problem with this at all. But many do, and most prominently, the Linux community as a whole has it.

I'm not the one to fix this, I can't tell you how one could fix it. And frankly, I don't want to be involved in fixing this. I'm a technical guy, I want to do technical things.

My personal conclusion from all of this is mostly that I don't want to have much to do with the worst offenders, and the communities they run. My involvement with the kernel community ended long before I started, I never post in LKML, and I haven't in years. Also, in our own project we supervise the posts. We regularly put a few under moderation on the mailing list, and we continue to do so. Currently the systemd community is fantastic, and I hope we can keep it that way.

And that's all on this topic. I have no intention of speaking it again in a public forum.

If you are looking for a critical article with this row, I keep the one written in ZDNet. Besides that in this other article Linus did not speak so bad of systemd.

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  1.   @Jlcmux said

    The extremist groupies of Stallman and Torvalds are the worst.

    1.    Staff said

      Interestingly, your comment is the best example of the intolerance discussed in this article.

      1.    jcpp said

        Yes, I think it is exactly like that. The best thing about the community is that if you like it, you can use it, otherwise you can 'forge' it. In any case, the efficient thing is to contribute to making it 'better', I totally disagree with personal 'flames'; I prefer to be 'a technical guy'; I personally don't use systemd, but that doesn't mean I hate Herr Poettering, he really is a great programmer, that's my criteria. And yes, Linus does it wrong, that you have done something great so that everyone uses it and / or needs it, does not give you the right to mistreat those who collaborate with you, whether they are financially remunerated or not.

  2.   somebody said

    I give the reason in part to Lennart.
    the truth is that the personal offenses buying killers online is in very bad taste and unnecessary as well as illegal. It is not the same as constructive criticism of systemd or a certain degree of activism, in that sense I agree

    and if linus is usually very controversial because of the way he expresses himself. That is not a secret for almost any linuxer

  3.   Staff said

    LOL, And now raise your hand who is free from sin, who never attacked any specific group with pejorative labels in any article.

    1.    diazepam said

      Todd Flanders is sinless, hit it hard

  4.   tahuri said

    I think there is some truth in these words ... I am very sorry that you are suffering persecution.

  5.   guardian said

    This was a "sewer" that someone had to uncover sooner or later, it is to respect the value of denouncing and showing what is really lived within the "Open Source" community. In the end, they became the monster they attacked so much , many questions few answers.

  6.   x11tete11x said

    You have to have eggs to continue developing as Lennart does ... I bank him, good or bad, the guy pursues what seems right to him, so far those who are against I only saw that:
    a) They complain
    b) they propose to continue using the old init (which does not surprise me because instead of proposing a solution that technically equals the capacity of Systemd, they prefer to leave things as they are .... dinosaurs ..)

    PS: For those who say that something has already been proposed (UselessD), please, it is nothing more than Systemd with disabled modules (Oh! It was not that it was an inseparable code massacre?), It is a way of lying to yourself saying that use a fork of systemd ..

  7.   anonymous said

    The law of action / reaction, he knows that with his actions he will provoke reactions, getting angry shows that it is the only thing he can do to play innocent.
    It is the price that you pay and will pay for not listening to those who demand solutions to the bugs that it produces.
    The classic boot systems had no bugs, systemd has them and does not want to fix them
    What else can you ask for his opinion, the rest of the community.
    Distros force systemd to be used, but it turns out that systemd doesn't compete in stability and security with previous boot systems.
    It makes me happy… with the wipe he gave Linus I don't think he will accept kdbus in the core, so eudev is going to have a very quiet life.
    Nothing is random and casual… everything is causal, action / reaction.

    1.    johnfgs said

      Classic startup systems were bug-free

      [citation needed]

      1.    yukiteru said

        To say that the old init did not have bugs is too much (all software has bugs) but suffice it to say that systemd in its short life already has THREE (3) CVE against SysVinit that has ONE (1) and is from 1999, it is enough to see just the difference in development, right?

        Also take a look at the number of bugs reported for systemd and sysvinit, and you will see that systemd despite its short life compared to SysV is quite chubby in bugs, and that says a lot too.


      2.    anonymous said

        [citation needed]

        Well, since you are asking, tell me what were the problems of classic startup systems ... because I can list many of those that systemd has had for over 2 years, although others have already commented on them.

        I do not want to distort, but someone noticed the speed increase in the 3.17.0 improved the speed of the entire system by easily 30% compared to the 3.16.3 I was using.

        using 3.16.3 compiling 3.17.0
        # time make -j9
        real 2m38.159s

        using 3.17.0 compiling 3.16.4
        # time make -j9
        real 1m54.392s

        Same .config, it took 44 seconds less.

      3.    yukiteru said

        @anonymous maybe it has to do with some old drivers that have left the kernel tree, kernel cleanup. 🙂

      4.    johnfgs said

        None anonymous, as you have said they were perfect, indeed they were the only piece of software conceived by man that has never had bugs in the history of its development.

        Except for the 1.1.81 linux kernel that we all know had no bugs, and whoever says otherwise is telling lies:

        And 1.1.81 is officially BugFree (tm), so if you receive any bug-reports
        on it, you know they are just evil lies. »
        (By Linus Torvalds, Linus.Torvalds@cs.helsinki.fi)

  8.   Fernando said

    I have already read in other blogs that systemd is the devil, a linux cancer, "second core". Better and not be like that, because I will join the people who attack the writer of this post, haha ​​in the meantime I will continue studying because I do not want to be one of those assholes who criticize without knowing

  9.   SynFlag said

    Excellent post, but, excellent, I am very amused by the hypocrisy with which he talks. Who is the fascist, the community or the red hat imposing a stupid and bloated replacement for init?

    On the other hand, is she a fag or is she just martyrdom? What a cold chest it is. In my country we would say "What the fuck you are ... you look like a woman with PMS", being light.

    The first thing I thought is: "Oh God, we are achieving it, let him break down, yes, let him leave everything, he can't take it anymore"
    The second thing that occurred to me is: "Doesn't it occur to him why so many hate him and want to kill him as he says?" Do not find similarity to other historical characters in the world of computer science who suffered the same only that it did not affect them? (billy) »
    Exquisite the links that you added and I do not say it only for my blog, which I appreciate, but, really, they were the JUST condiment to each sentence.

    He gets involved with the kernel people, it's remarkable ... and I say it because ... how dare you ?, spoiled asshole, identical to the German from the video, which by the way ... if they tell me it's him a year ago I would believe it .
    I would love to see what Linus says about this, or what he thinks, which I will surely never know. We already know that he doesn't care about the kernel, for something he does what he does replacing the entire system with its crap, supported by Red Hat's money, so the first spoiled "asshole" is him. He talks like a windows user who was attacked on an irc channel called #linux while asking for advice from an antivirus.

    PS: Now more than ever I know what affects him when they attack him ... well ... I'm going to put more emphasis

    1.    Mithril said

      1 Learn to use words well.
      2 Learn to write correctly.
      3 Fuck you, you are very old so that if you don't like something, stop using it. I can not understand how someone who does not like systemd can go to such extremes but you are the clear example of those idiots.

      1.    synflag said

        Do you tell me? Windows user ?. I do not answer you mr troll

      2.    synflag said

        I add: I write as I please, if you have a vocation as a grammar teacher, go there and I worked in a school. I can't leave systemd, everything is flooded by it, all distro. I use CentOS and it doesn't affect me but I see beyond my belly button. You?

      3.    anonymous said

        I have read your comments and I agree with everything you say and how you say it.
        Users who do not want systemd on their pcs are being cornered because the distros have gone en masse to use systemd and there is no possibility of replacing it with another boot system since those distros simply removed the options .... they have forced to use systemd to his followers.
        The options that remain without systemd are few but good, unfortunately they are not easy to install distros as they were used to, slackware, gentoo, funtoo are the main ones without systemd and it is known that they will not use systemd in the future.
        I have used slackware for many years for a short time and for more than 5 years I only use gentoo, I can tell you that slackware was much more difficult for me, I can recommend gentoo or funtoo ... you will learn a lot but you will have to have a little initial patience until you understand its handling.
        I enjoy eudev (fork of udev) and openrc, I tell you that it is the easiest to understand there is, much, much easier than systemd.
        What are you waiting for? try gentoo with openrc and don't panic, gentoo has the best guides in Spanish and English that exist, much better than archlinux in my opinion.
        To complete the advertising, gentoo has released a very complete dvd to install from it, that is, it is the same process by hand and with commands as it always was, but with an excellent graphical environment (kde by default).
        A clarification, do not install gnome3, this has a systemd dependency and therefore will end up with gnome + systemd installed.


    2.    yukiteru said

      Let's face it gentlemen, the only ones who will win with this change of init, the binary and gray logs, are those from Red Hat. I see in a couple of years, Red Hat technical service with twice or more employees than it has now, for the simple fact that now it has to attend more requests for technical service because: «Error 0x00FF011. Unable to properly start Apache service. Please contact Red Hat Technical Support for details. ».

      What has happened shows that Lennart is a human being and he suffers, this relief is a sample of that, but the guy is tough, and I say: That egocentric is not a tough nut to crack. Come on @SynFlag, this guy one day will get another pearl like the one he did in the Red Hat bugtrack, saying that he only wants to make everything / and / usr remain in Windows Program Files, and having Red Hat and an accommodating community is capable of doing that and more.

      1.    synflag said

        If you were able to close a pulseaudio bug and its tsched by "alsa" saying that the problem was how shitty it was, I expect anything

  10.   geek said

    It has nothing to do with the subject but ... I have not read courage in any comment! What happened to the archer boy? I liked him: C

  11.   mat1986 said

    You can call me ignorant if you want, but since I've been using systemd I haven't had any problems. If we were to use the previous init again, I would be lost at sea looking for how to activate bluetooth or modemmanager for example - there are distros that have them disabled by default. For me, systemd is easy to handle. If it replaced sysvinit, it will be for something - beyond the possible influence of Red Hat. If most of the distros accepted it, it must be for something - beyond the possible influence of Red Hat. On the other hand, reading about this topic already has me fed up; Finally, if you don't want systemd to make a fork or make something from 0 and voila, that's the advantage of Soft. Free, right?

    1.    johnfgs said

      Is that these things show that there is a lot of linuxero mouse or "freeloader" as they call it in English. There are complaints and complaints, you can complain in a productive way. X thing could be done differently, and another is "systemd is fucking shit and lennart gets fucked up the ass." The reality is that of the critics of SystemD, PulseAudio, DNF, or any new free technology always the loudest group is the reactionaries who do not contribute anything. Another was the time when if you didn't like the way things were going in GNU Emacs, you went to XEmacs and you competed healthily.

      Honestly, I have been using Linux for a long time, and the truth is that even if I don't like a thousand new things, even though sometimes the new gnome doesn't convince me, even if I didn't like NetworkManager when it came out, nowadays Linux is a thousand times more usable than when it started, and everyone who ever threatened to switch to BSD didn't.

      1.    Armando said

        If you put aside the rudeness of people who are critical and against SystemD and focus only on the arguments they show, you will see that they are not as crazy as they look.

        And if they complain and do not give solutions, it is because they think that the "old" init worked better.

  12.   Yoyo said

    I adhere and certify.

    The Linux Community is Horrible !!!!

    I know because I see it daily and I experience it in the first person.

    1.    Devil's lawyer said

      Are we back to the old ways Yoyo? ... Look, you lose your ass after deleting the posts and asking for forgiveness ...

    2.    joaco said

      It catches my attention, where is this type of behavior seen?

      1.    One in passing said

        Well, in comment # 11, for example.

    3.    danishc87 said

      Yoyo I know that many people in the community are rogues but we should not generalize to the entire community for a task of fools

  13.   rudra said

    The unfair thing about the attacks it suffers is that they should be directed at those who have implemented systemd in the distros, mainly those responsible for red hat, arch, opensuse and debian.

  14.   Dariem said

    I don't know why they fuck with Poettering. If your favorite distro went for systemd, it's not Poettering's fault, it's the developers of your distro, as no one forced them to include systemd. Given this you have several options:
    1.- Convince the developers of your distribution to reverse the decision and go back to the previous init they used, if you have sufficiently convincing technical arguments
    2.- Maintain your own variant of your distribution with the old init, which is free software for that
    3.- Change the distribution, that the GNU / Linux ecosystem is diverse enough to be tied to a single thing
    4.- Change the operating system, if you think that GNU / Linux is going astray due to the rapid adoption of systemd that is occurring
    5.- Develop something better than systemd, thus achieving that the distributions adopt it, including the one you use
    6.- Accept at once that there is nothing wrong with systemd and that it is just a matter of getting used to its use, and you may even do better than before.
    So stop ranting against Poettering who is ultimately just another developer and has no special or supernatural power to influence the decisions of all distributions despite all the Red Hat money.

    1.    HO2Gi said

      Well said, I totally agree with you.

    2.    x11tete11x said

      finally someone with common sense, I take my hat off to your comment

    3.    jlbaena said

      That's right, but infantilism is the currency of many linux users, for example, criticism of attacks trumps ad hominem, or going to the principles of GNU / Linux (but without wanting to understand the slight differences between open source - open source) and twist the arguments trying to convince that Red Hat forces at gunpoint to choose systemd. Lenard himself falls into this attitude more than once, he complains about the gentoo community, for example, but as far as I know, they develop their own startup system because they have never liked systemd (which has not prevented them from including it in its distribution for those of its users who prefer) and by the way, the gentoo community should be the reference for antisystemd, I don't like your system, I develop my own, instead of spending my life complaining because I want to have my machines with Red Hat, without paying support and without systemd.

      Anyway, I congratulate you on the sensible comment.

  15.   Ernesto Manriquez said

    On Google+, and as a Linux forum I post, my position is only one: on the side of Lennart. When you grow up, you no longer wake up one fine morning and say "I'm going to follow a beautiful tutorial to make my two sound cards work side by side, setting asound.conf", you want things to work . PulseAudio had BUGS, which were fixed, but for me it is a real solution to a real problem. Same systemd.

    So when you say "systemd is cancer, systemd is bad because PulseAudio is bad, systemd and PulseAudio are part of a conspiracy led by Poettering to turn all distributions into Red Hat, systemd must be boycotted, Poettering must be killed by hiring assassins ", Which is what I have heard from the anti-systemd field, the only thing I see is resistance to change for its own sake (especially in the case of systemd), and a tremendous threat to the mental superiority that many Linux users believe they have, because the changes that Poettering plans go in the direction of making Linux installable by everyone (/ usr immutable, static and signed, automatic generation of / etc and / var), having programs installable by everyone (delta disk mountable, summable and deduplicated images with btrfs), and have desktops that everyone can use (user mode, support with GNOME as a pilot desktop).

    Let's screw this in our heads: we are not superior to Windows users. We use Linux, we have our reasons for using it, we like it better, we find it freer, more efficient and better, but we are not superior.

    1.    yukiteru said

      I ask myself a very simple question: Is it that Linux programs are not installable by everyone? Because all the distros that I have tried have the possibility of making any user (as long as they have the necessary permissions) to install a program. But if with your vision of "programs that can be installed by all" you mean to install things by means of a double click and that's it ... I honestly think that we are going like the crab.

      The thing to do the usermove, gave me a bad feeling at the time, especially because they went through the LINING, everything that was the FHS (Filesystem Hierarchy Standard), something that has been worked with for years and that by the way, It has NEVER been a problem. Those of Fedora wielded a lot of arguments in making this change, many of them quite incongruous and to know that this is the case, it is enough to know you from head to head the FHS and read the reasons that Fedora took into account to make that change, then you understand that there was something else behind it. And if that something else is systemd.

      The pretty boy of systemd doesn't work well with / usr as stipulated in the FHS (occupying secondary hierarchy), because it just isn't designed according to that standard, but; Why? Is it that Lennart and his team do not know the FHS standard? I do not think so. The other thing you mention is mounting / usr in read-only mode. I invite you to review the permissions of / usr in Fedora, from version 17 to 20, and tell me if / usr is mounted in read-only mode. And the other thing is: Couldn't / usr be put into read-only mode as stipulated in the original FHS? The answer is yes.

      In short, this never-ending story, among those who say they are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT making changes left and right in their path, and those who advocate maintaining structures that work, updating, improving and designing new tools to take advantage of the new hardware, no it will end for the moment, this fight will be long.


      1.    synflag said

        I said about UsrMove at the time. You can see it on my blog, but they called me a hype troll. Now those same people who called me that don't say anything…. That's having the dirty ass. In a while they will give me the reason with this systemd and again there will be regrets who prefer to remain silent before recognizing the merit of "seeing it coming"

      2.    diazepam said

        @synflag Apollo punished Cassandra for his betrayal by keeping her gift of divination but depriving her of the power of persuasion. So no matter how accurate your predictions are, they will never be believed.

      3.    yukiteru said

        @synflag you said it at the time, but it is also true that many in the Fedora lists and other distros, complained a lot about this movement, but they minimized it. When you hear about it on the Debian list, I didn't pay much attention to it, until someone mentioned that it had to do with decisions in favor of systemd and that Red Hat had its hairy hand in it, and there it got hot.

      4.    Ernesto Manriquez said

        @Yukiteru: This goes much further, it's about creating identical disk images that are replicable on hundreds of computers, that work on all of them, and that contain Linux. systemd takes care of creating the configuration files so that everything works. It is one thing for the programs to be installable by desktop users (which is where the btrfs delta package system is also coming) and another is for complete systems to be installable or even loadable from a server, in the blink of an eye, on hundreds of computers.

  16.   mmm said

    Excuse the ignorance but ……… is it true that they hired a hit man? is this a joke? was it a bad joke? or……. is the most absurd and is it real? Greetings and thanks.

    1.    yukiteru said

      Well, it seems that if, something that seems extremely sick to me, it is good that they do not like Lennart as a "little gold coin", but reaching that extreme is already crazy.

  17.   anonymous said

    @Ernesto Manriquez
    Let's screw this in our heads: we are not superior to Windows users. We use Linux, we have our reasons for using it, we like it better, we find it freer, more efficient and better, but we are not superior.

    Do not speak for everyone, in any case speak only for yourself, feeling superior is only being an administrator in addition to a simple user, it is not bad to be a simple user, not everyone can be an administrator as well as a user.
    One thing that I always wondered about was why they think that "an end user" should be able to install their distro by their own means, when they cannot do it with the windows CD, which is why they take their PCs to computer houses to get the job done.
    Wanting a user without administrator knowledge to make critical decisions in an installation without having the knowledge of the cause is like asking everyone who has a car, to be a mechanic.
    The same applies to the management of services or demons, "an end user" does not have to touch that, that is for the administrator and if he is not, he must turn to others who are or take the time and learn which is not that complicated either.

  18.   elav said

    I'm not in favor of hiring hit men, or the Boycott, or anything like that. I think that no matter how bad someone's work is, they have every right to do it as they please and the decision to use it or not is up to us.

    Now, I don't know what Lennart is complaining about. Don't you know why they hate you? I tell you by quoting YukiteruAmano in a topic on our forum where we touched on this topic:

    Now, Lennart has sought out and earned much of the "hatred" in the community, that's completely true. This guy is a complete nuisance in the bugtracker of Fedora, Red Hat and Freedesktop, his own egocentricity makes him believe that he and only he, are right in everything, and in case someone proves otherwise, the wrong one is the other , because the great Lennart is always right. First time something like this happens? The answer is no.

    With Pulseaudio something similar also happened (many people rose up against Pulseaudio because of the pile of things that it broke, and the problems it caused, problems that it was supposed to correct), although on a smaller scale (it is an audio server, nothing so elemental and critical as init) but the reasons are almost the same, while he creates problems with those who do not share his point of view, and as long as his guidelines are followed and his hooves are licked, he is happy and content, while fills his mouth by saying that those are: "The true Open Source community."

    The other issue is attacking Linus. For what reason? Why did he indirectly attack his development (systemd) by avoiding Kay Sierves' sick "patches" and then he (Lennart) had to confront what happened? Please ... what idiocy, that's what I think.

    Clearer, neither the water. Linus Torvalds has his characteristics, we know that, but when he attacked SystemD he did it objectively, perhaps somewhat abruptly, but objectively as always.

    It is very good that we want everything to work the first time when we start the computer. Even I had grown fond of SystemD while I did not have to do more advanced things, so when that happened, I was faced with the fact that SystemD is a pain in the ass that wants to control everything, and that gentlemen (call me a dinosaur if you want ) goes against the philosophy of: that a program does only one thing, but does it well.

    Does Lennart want Systemd to be accepted? Well, to correct all the errors you have, to make your records (logs) transparent, among other things .. It was very cool when to see a log you only had to execute:

    tailf /var/log/syslog

    And now to do it I have to resort to

    journalctl -xn

    because I can't see the fucking log as if it were a simple text file.

    In short, I am against what you have tried to do, but if it is up to me, let him take all his hatred and get out of RedHat (which I sincerely thought he would do), that until now without SystemD we had lived happily and happily.

    By the way, I also agree with Dariem's ​​comment, it is the fault of who implements it, not the one who does it, but now everything is a mess. For example KDE, now you have to choose whether your Task Scheduler works with Crontab or with SystemD ..

    1.    joaco said

      I like it.
      I see what they say about systemD, for me it is good, but if it causes so many people problems, they may be the problem or the problem is systemD. For me it is a mixture, it is a very abrupt change after all and it takes getting used to, but systemD also has room to improve, so I hope that the guy they are talking about will get the hang of it and make it more transparent as you say, but I see that both the guy and several unsatisfied users of systemD have "misunderstandings," not to say they have poo on their brains, no offense.

    2.    SynFlag said

      I add information about the same as quotes from the forum, also in response to the "one in passing" where it says that comment 11 (mine) is an example of what Lennart says as if it were something bad that a few years ago (3), I reported a bug in Fedora bugzilla, commenting that Pulseaudio made a frying noise in my Realtek Azalia seat and ended up hanging the audio system.

      Lennart himself responded and closed the bug, saying that:

      "The problem is not pulseaudio, but the shit of alsa and its intel driver so first fix alsa, but of course as they do not have support they will not do anything, I close this bug"

      Does it seem like an answer to a bug? Not to me, because in fact the problem is that pulseaudio uses a timer, which it does not, that's why it was the error, it seems more constructive to me either to deactivate it on Azalia boards or to do as a Fedora helper a tuto where it said that tsched = 0 should be set in a part of the pulseaudio configuration files, EVEN so, although the frying goes away, the error is always with "X events suppressed" when you open Skype or some player.

      If lennart knew about alsa, let's assume that alsa is faulty, then why did pulseaudio make it fail and if not, why didn't he fix it knowing that alsa bug?

      Lennart, winning enemies from pulseaudio ...

      1.    yukiteru said

        Pulseaudio and its tsched is a recognized little detail, because even in the Arch Wiki it appears, it is preferable to run ALSA alone than to put PulseAudio to work, especially when you have to move the PulseAudio configuration and then the demon respawns every 10 seconds, and there is no other than to uninstall, purge by hand everything that has to do with Pulse and remount Pulse with the default configuration. In my current conf I only have ALSA, and I am able to play multiple audio sources at once without having to touch anything.

        Not only that, when PulseAudio itches and does not want to do more than break the audio of your system, either advancing or delaying it in your videos, you have no choice but to move the conf in a millimeter way.

      2.    one step said

        Well, if you are an example, why is there a difference between "... alsa is shit ..." and "On the other hand, is she a fag or is she just martyrdom?" or “What the fuck are you… you look like a woman with PMS”, you don't like systemd and you have plenty of technical arguments to make your criticisms, why the personal disqualification? Is it that emulating Torvald makes you? They should have moderated you by entering personal appreciations.

  19.   anonymous said

    The problem here is that money has bought the decision of the leaders of many distros, the startup system in those distros is not optional, if I don't like systemd in archlinux, I have no choice but to abandon archlinux, I say so again and let the one who feels touched be offended and angry ... it is the green money GOD in many decks that has tipped the balance.
    The directors of the distros that adopted systemd are guilty of removing something that was perfectly fine, to force something not finished with hundreds of bugs that they do not want to fix, instead of fixing what is wrong they continue to expand functionalities as if they were a metastasis.
    Normal users do not see these bugs, only administrators and more servers administrators who collide with the sovereign crass of systemd.

  20.   Uncle Nacho said

    The guy is right, but he can't take things that are written on 4chan seriously.
    I entered an article of those 4chan and the truth that I laughed a lot because I understand it as a great collective joke.
    I used Fedora and arch with systemd and had no problem. Of course I am a very basic user.

  21.   danishc87 said

    The truth is that the problem with systemd is that its inclusion causes many bugs, I remember that a long time ago I read a discussion of Linus with one of the developers and he claimed that systemd breaks many things that the kernel intended to do.
    As it says "SynFlag" systemd is very bloated and still pretends to be a replacement for init.
    Systemd has several problems to consider in its implementation of which I will name a few.

    - It causes many bugs in the kernel and Mr. Poettering solves them at ease as if it were a school job, but it turns out that several distributions currently depend on its development
    - If Lennart doesn't care about the kernel then why does he develop a boot system for the linux kernel?
    - Why the eagerness to make binary logs instead of text logs as is common in the OpenSource world? What do you want to hide with so much binary log?
    - Why is systemd a startup system that controls so many things instead of just being a startup system and letting each process do its thing?

    x11tete11x I understand your point of view that init is an old (but functional) system and that systemd does many things faster than init, but uselessd although with an ugly name due to the "lack" of imagination of the developers seems to me a good an initiative that deflates systemd a bit and although it tends to split FLOSS, the idea of ​​it is that everyone uses what they want without prejudice, the same happens with Desktop Environments and Window Managers.

    I do not remember where I read this but "If uselessd is a fork of systemd it means that something good must have systemd so that they rely on it to make their fork"

    1.    yukiteru said

      uselessD is much more than a fork, it is a development that takes many good things (that it has) from systemd and adds many others, among them the possible support for BSD and compatibility with other C libraries, which with systemd for now is unthinkable. Certainly the main problem with systemd is how bloated and poorly it gets along with some familiar pieces of software.

      Now about your questions, I will answer them with some curiosities:

      That Lennart cares little about kernel development? I have no information on that, but if we are guided by his actions, the thing seems to be true.

      Why the eagerness to make binary logs instead of text logs as is common in the OpenSource world? Not the slightest idea, they say it is for security, but surely they forgot that there is partition encryption and other log tools that handle encryption at the application level, tools that by the way have more time, are more proven, are more stable and are widely accepted.

      Why is systemd a startup system that controls so many things instead of just being a startup system and letting each process do its thing? Surely someone will say that this is false, that systemd is an init, and that the rest of the tools are other binaries that may or may not be activated. But come on man, in order for journald to work, an embedded http micro server has to be opened and what does an embedded HTTP micro server do in an init that incidentally is still unable to allow remote logs to be viewed? I've no idea. And that's just in the case of journald, the latest systemd additions include a DHCP server (IPv4 and IPv6), a DNS cache server, an M-DNS and DNS-SD server (any Avahi on your system), a daemon to control consoles called consoleD (I understand that CONFIG_VT is complicating things in the kernel, and that is why kmscon was a good option to bring TTYs to userspace, but now systemd with console handling). The other thing is that this whole set of tools is so integrated, that surely at some point it could occur to good Lennart, only to support his own tools because he only trusts the things that the development, leaving the rest of the demons out. What am I paranoid? Not at all, note that systemctl daemon-reload does not work properly because systemd is unable to know when a file has been changed and rerun the unit-file with the changes made (when there are larger changes in the init-files of the daemons). A small drawback of the file systems such as ext3 and ext4, which make it necessary to reboot the system to be able to apply the changes made to the system (very Windows, but it is the truth), simply because Lennart does not like how inotify and fanotify handle notifications of changes in files within the filesystem, while waiting for BTRFS to save his life (there is talk of the extensive integration of systemd with BTRFS, we'll see how that goes). And the icing on the cake in all of this is, that Cenozoic inits like SysVinit, do that and more and are unfazed.

      1.    elav said

        Not if I read you and hedgehog .. I did not know so thoroughly all that you comment .. and then Lennart wonders why they hate him so much .. SystemD is shit from PI to PA .. that's how I see it.

      2.    synflag said

        You may not like inotify but something arch and hyper used in rhel is incron, which uses those archive functions. So?. Search google incron and you will see how useful it is.

    2.    yukiteru said

      By the way, you can see the systemctl daemon-reload here in the following links, marked with "CANTFIX" or "WONTFIX" or simply open.


      1.    danishc87 said

        Of course, if uselessd is more than a fork since systemd does not work in BSD and the uselessd guys are making that possible (and much more), but it was born as a fork because they use the same base, now that the fork does better things that the "original" sounds very promising, the systemd and btrfs did not know will have to wait and see what happens with that.
        If it is true that init is old but at least it complies with the unix philosophy of doing one thing and doing it well while systemd does many things and still fails in some, for my part I am going to read a little more about openrc as well as about systemd and init of course, to see which one suits my machine best.
        @Yukiteru, the info and the links are appreciated !!

  22.   linuXgirl said

    Wow, all to finish talking about systemd again… !!! WTF !!!

  23.   Gab said

    May the translator forgive me for his free translation of "the fish dies by the mouth" but although it sounds a bit like "Flamerdellenguajecorrecto" the previous quote does not have that meaning and has never had it in that sense.
    I am not going to position myself, but I am clear that the author has inserted that quote with the value attributed to it: Words often ruin things in human relationships, and like fish that die when they open their mouths and let in a hook We humans screw things up by opening our mouths and saying the wrong words.
    The own appointment with the translator of the note is fulfilled, he has died from the mouth.

    1.    yukiteru said

      I think it is you who has died from the mouth 😀

  24.   Juan said

    I do not know the details that have given rise to that reflection and that the majority are discussing in their comments.
    What motivates me to write is the reflection itself.

    One takes time to realize it, or to admit it in public, but it is the whole truth, OpenSource is a Horrible Thing, a group of disrespectful, resentful, envious, unprofessional and haters of almost everything.
    In fact, if anyone wants to know the main problem with OpenSource, this is it (the second is that no one went later and the third is bad software).

    And this behavior is not accidental, because it is something that is encouraged, applauded, admired and imitated, because above all it comes from the 'most admired' people of OpenSource.

    And that is what I like the most about reflection, which puts the points in ies that are taboo or sacred cows; because occasionally it has been said that 'the community' is the problem, but the community is almost a payment, because this is really just a copycat reflection of the OpenSource Leadership that is a monument to disrespect, hatred, envy , to the lack of professionalism, etc.

    But I disagree that 'the vast majority are not' because in fact the totality sure is. And that's where the second big problem comes in: that no one went later, no one sees his straw tail.
    I don't know this guy, but I'd bet he (or the group he's speaking for) has been all he criticizes, is, and will be (some comments here seem to attest to that).
    Because perhaps today the victim is the poor people of systemd, but yesterday it was GNOME and KDE and GNOME again and the distro that is not my distro and the FSF and GNU that are always "the bad guys and radicals" and etc and tomorrow it will continue to happen, because that's how Linux and Opensorce are: hatred and expletives at anything.
    The only thing that has always been untouchable from criticism and attack is the sacrosanct kernel and its only prophets.

    1.    jlbaena said

      What you write is not exact, rather it is incomplete; Microsoft professionals release a version from time to time so that users (who have paid for it, let's not forget it) can test the system, and of course no one has ever protested about windows vista or windows 8, or metro, or apple I don't know which application placed you in the North Pole despite seeing the tropical sun, or that it has never had to refund money for a poorly designed device, but hey, as I write from memory the same thing I'm wrong. About kde 4 or gnome 3, whoever installed it in the first versions knew that it was not a tested and safe environment (did you know that when you bought a laptop and brought windows vista, yes or if we do not forget it?), Protests in the linux community, yes, that's why it's a community.
      And about the kernel, anyway, it seems to me that you are not aware of Torvald's brawls, or where you think Poeetering's whining comes from, or the comments that Theo de Raadt makes about the linux code, the sacrosanct kernel

      1.    Juan said

        I don't know what Microsoft has to do with the issue, but it's never lacking.
        By the way that I know people can download the trial versions for free, but this has nothing to do with it.
        I also don't know what Windows Vista has to do with it, which is a finished and functional OS, just what people bought.

        It is not a secret that Microsoft is always criticized, whether it finds the cure for cancer or gives Ebola vaccines, it will always be criticized, just like Apple, and that always usually comes from the same haters sectors (those who ' coincidentally 'we already talked about how they have hate and attack as a modus vivendi and in theory they shouldn't care about their products)

        And MS (and Apple) are very different topics, because the criticisms come from specific unsatisfied users (who will never be absent with reason) and from the usual trade haters (who will never be absent and are not usually clients), they never come from within or of internal wars or tell and tell, or the CEO spitting at the one who provokes him because he did not take his psychiatric medicine and things like that depressing.

        OpenSource is not like this 'because it is a community' but because it is a community of hatred, resentment, intolerance and a series of things that I have already said.
        But the 'community' is the payoff.

        And unfortunately I am aware of Torvalds' lack of professionalism. At least enough not to want to know more.
        And what Theo de Raadt says has nothing to do with it because (fortunately) he is not a tuxlibanux who will have trouble telling whether the emperor-penguin is naked and / or that he dreams of Torvalds being his friend wet.

    2.    mario said

      That strategy of being victimized, now they are the "poor" of systemd. Last year when the dispute occurred in debian with upstart, they were supposedly the majority and had a large community behind. Is it the same "community" with which you are fighting? Of course not. If, as you say, it were "the whole", they would not have supported it from the beginning.
      Upstart was also standard on Fedora, Ubuntu, and a few others, and did not lead to boycott or controversy to my knowledge. It is strange that software generates so many disputes.

      1.    Juan said

        I admit that there is a point where I did not explain myself well.
        When I say that it is 'the totality' (and that 'then nobody has been'), it is because everyone at some point! They have played the role of victim when the objective of the flame was another, and it has happened many times because that is the norm in OpenSource, there is always a fashionable victim according to the season, attacking and hating something is the Linux modus vivendi. Of course, then nobody wants to remember and especially when the objective of the flame is 'ours' that the victim card is played.
        That is what I meant.

        About why systemd is giving so much dispute is another issue and I do not know because I am not very aware of that; but for what little I have seen in the last days I see serious that Linux (the kernel) has separated from the POSIX standard and systemd is using these non-standard features, thus being incompatible with the rest of the UNIX clone systems.
        I read it in a link posted here and I think it is written by the same people from systemd.
        So systemd is just the first in a cascading effect that will eventually render everyone who still follows the standard unsupported for not being 'linux compatible'.
        To me, seeing that is VERY SERIOUS but nobody seems to see it or care. Perhaps because it would be necessary to fall into 'heretical terrain'.

  25.   moony said

    ... I think that giving so much opinion on this issue is already quite unpalatable and it begins to be close to the "dementia on the internet" that you mention.
    Just as well, long live writing!

  26.   Camaleon said

    The problem is the interest that each involved in this mess has; Linus Torvalds and Richard Stallman are mentioned as leaders; but the truth is that deep down, everyone walks as they please, that's what I think; finally, nobody forces to belong to any community, today I can be with systemd and I can change to another alternative if I see or understand hidden intentions in its creator or sponsors, which unfortunately could exist, and it is that you can no longer choose between systemd or init, systemd has been imposed, maybe, as they say because of its technical background (it works well), but what is there, of its practical ideology; has an ethical or social conscience; Like Lennart Poettering said, he's a Technical person, I guess he's just as practical in that as Linus Torvalds. Stallman is an ethical person, his interest is not only the economic and technical background, if not, rather, it seems to be social welfare, consequently, I would not worry about conspiracies against my life, on the part of someone of those human virtues. More if it would take into account who this technical (or social) work affects in their mainly economic expectations.

  27.   pandev92 said

    nor the least esteem for the creator of cacaudio.

  28.   kavra said

    Well, it seems to me a Lennart tantrum (alias Llorón) to divert attention from what is really important, that systemd is shit only at the height of the Icaza monkey.

    And why do I say it sucks?
    It is not KISS (the whole * nix philosophy going through the triumph arc), and be careful that we are not talking about a user application such as a browser or even a web server ... we are talking about the core of the OS.
    It does more things now ... and more lines of code ... more bug, more difficult to maintain, more complex and more dependent on the original development team and their future decisions, whatever they may be.
    I see that some circles criticize the issue of logs, that is parrot chocolate, in future revisions they spit the logs into text and silence those criticisms. Moreover, it seems precisely a functionality that has that purpose, that criticism focuses on that and not on what is important ... that they are practically creating a second kernel on top. No thanks, with a kernel I have enough.

    As for the gentoo ... well ... in short crying and crying for now we continue with openrc despite himself (we'll see how much).

    That Gnome is only going to be compatible with this init, makes very clear also the position of the gnome devs on the freedom to choose (as I am glad I fled in gnome3)

    What does not fit in my head is that the Debian community has been doubled over with this mastodon.

    Sorry for the billet 😉

  29.   jorgerm said

    Too bad this post did not reflect Linus Tovalds's reply.

    «» I'll happily join 'spirited discussions' (aka flame wars) about actual technical issues, but Lennart's problems? I don't see why I'd want to get involved »iTWire - 09 October 2014

    In short, you are not interested in Poettering problems. I adhere.