Reading part of the interview with Clem lefebvre where he offers his opinion on Mir, I started thinking To what extent can Mir affect us?
Let's take a simple example: LibreOffice. Many distributions adopted this Office Suite when what we all know happened, however, that does not mean that we cannot install another alternative, even our own OpenOffice.
Debian for example still includes Office in their repositories, and we can install it if we want Wouldn't it be the same with Mir? Though Canonical bring this new graphical server to all variants of Ubuntu, there is no reason why you should remove from repositories to Xorg o Wayland, so the rest of the * buntu they could still use these graphics servers. Do you understand my point?
For that part, I don't think there is any problem, and I sincerely hope so. Already some developers of KDE have confessed that they will not waste their efforts in supporting Mir (for now), and that they will continue to use Xorg o Wayland.
Thus Kubuntu it could run its course and wouldn't have to use another distribution as a base as some speculate. Although on the part of Xfce I have not seen any note about it, because I imagine the same happens with Xubuntu.
I myself have come to think that Canonical more and more of the initial objective for con Ubuntuand that Mir It could be one more step in trying to create products that can only be used by them.
It already happens with Unity, which install it in other distributions although it is not impossible, it turns out to be a nuisance mainly due to the absence of libraries that do not exist in other repositories, in Debian for example.
Ok, let's say it will be like this, what Canonical wants to become the Apple Lossless Audio CODEC (ALAC), of the FLOSS, that they want to create their own platform, and that they are the ones who decide what is good or not for the user. Should we care?
Well, if you are a user of Ubuntu and you do not like the line that this distro is following maybe, but the rest we can continue living peacefully. Although it is very fucked up that many think that GNU / Linux es UbuntuThose of us in this world know that it is not true, and for that we are here, to clarify to anyone who has doubts.
Bottom line: I don't know about you, but Mir it does not affect me in particular. If in the end it can be used in the rest of the distributions, then better, much better .. if it can't, then Xorg it continues with its development, which may be slow or whatever, but it has not died. What do they believe?
I totally agree with you Elav. Personally, it has been a long time since I gave up on Ubuntu, therefore, their decisions as they bring them to me. I think it is the good thing about Linux, there is a lot to choose from and how it happened to me, if after a long time of being with Ubuntu and I stopped being convinced by its decisions, I am not talking about the quality of the product, because there will be millions about that of opinions, because nothing for another, that for distributions it will not be.
Greetings.
I don't think Ubuntu will remove Xorg from its repositories ... but hey, let's see what happens, anyway, due to lack of alternatives, we won't stop using GNU / Linux 😀
On the one hand, innovation is good. Xorg is true that it is a graphical server that is already its years and it does not perform optimal in modern desktop environments.
Wayland seemed like the answer but according to Canonical it doesn't meet the minimum requirements for Ubuntu + Unity.
The problem is that if Canonical develops Mir so that Unity runs on it, I suppose that Unity will not be able to run on another graphical server, since that would be much more work and more difficult errors to debug.
I think the optimal thing would be for Unity to run only on Mir but having the option (as there is so far) to use other desktop / graphical server environments with Ubuntu for which Unity is not a suitable option.
That is the spirit that Canonical should respect, which is what differentiates Linux from closed OS: freedom of choice for the user.
On the other hand, Mir can turn out, over time, a good alternative as a graphical server for other distros and be ported to those other distros / desktop environments and devices, since the main motivation for developing Mir is that Ubuntu can be easily ported to mobile devices (which I think is a success today).
It really does meet the requirements. It is a matter of development control for which they wanted to make their own wayland
http://www.muktware.com/5341/wayland-incapable-delivering-what-mir-can
The biggest problem is that for OpenGL to work with table both in Wayland and Mir, LibGL has to be rewritten since it has dependency with X11, that's why they use OpenGL ES since LibGLES is not a new lib; At Wayland they plan to support OpenGL in the future with WaylandGL but first they want to finish the protocol; That's why in regards to the desktop there is X.ORG for a while and Valve if I'm not mistaken has already said that their games will depend on X11, and they did not plan to support Wayland, in they will see many additions in the protocol (see links ) in the future.
Wayland for the moment only serves for embedded systems
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMyMjQ
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMyMzI
If you see, this is what the happy fragmentation is for: in case a distro turns its back on its users, we go to a less tyrant 🙂
You make a serious mistake in my opinion, of course you can continue using xorg or wayland, but in the end with the proprietary drivers, it depends on which server they will support! Nothing else, and many people will continue to use proprietary drivers, that could mean in the end that if mir is supported by nvidia and amd, that server is used by all distros.
I seem to have read somewhere (I can't remember where, so I can't put links), that Wayland was supported directly or indirectly by RedHat, Intel and Samsung (maybe because of the Tizen issue).
I think these 3 companies may have much more influence over Nvidia and ATI than Canonical has (with or without Valve behind). Imagine if Intel decided to put firmware on their processors that would make them incompatible with Mir and only allow Xorg / Wayland (I don't know if it's possible, it's just speculation): what decision would ATI and Nvidia make?
That said, if Mir advances faster than Wayland, or was better than Wayland, I suppose he will be widely adopted in the end. If it's the other way around, Canonical might even back up and join the Wayland bandwagon; Total, he has already changed his mind other times.
I agree with you Elav. There are many distributions that will make their own decisions about whether or not to use Xorg, Mir or Wayland.
According to the experience they want to offer their users.
I said Don Linus Torvads or Alan Cox the problems of Gnome or Kde are alien to the KERNEL, and these problems lie in the outer layer.
...............................................................................................................
So Torvalds and Alan Cox criticized Miguel de Icaza's comments
http://www.muylinux.com/2012/09/03/torvalds-y-alan-cox-critican-los-comentarios-de-miguel-de-icaza/
I agree with you Elav. There are many distributions that will make their own decisions about whether or not to use Xorg, Mir or Wayland.
According to the experience they want to offer their users.
I said Don Linus Torvads or Alan Cox the problems of Gnome or Kde are alien to KERNEL,
...............................................................................................................
So Torvalds and Alan Cox criticized Miguel de Icaza's comments
http://www.muylinux.com/2012/09/03/torvalds-y-alan-cox-critican-los-comentarios-de-miguel-de-icaza/
Ubuntu increasingly distancing pro linux users and attracting more new ones, I mean, users who have 10000 distros installed on the computer and who are passionate every time criticize and move away from Ubuntu, but there are other types of users that the only thing What interests them is to have a stable operating OS to which Ubuntu falls in love, I say this from my own experience, friends and friends ask me to install Ubuntu to whom they have more friends than when they see Ubuntu installed on their laptop they ask to install them lol.
This comment is based on what I see, nothing else, it is also my opinion, by the way, excellent page, and I liked your post elav
guys, so much fighting over whether mir is good or bad or whatever; with our feet on the ground and objectively, how far are we from being implemented to the desktop? 13.10? 14.04? 14.10 ?. the truth is that nobody even knows when it comes out if how it is going to be implemented, and as far as I know we don't even have access to the code to test it in any way.
Loosen up a bit and let's wait for him to come out and then argue.
I do not like so many words with bold.
I am not very knowledgeable on the subject of graphic servers, but I believe in Darwin's theory of natural selection; in the end, the best (s) will survive.
a remark, openoffice is only in the debian squeeze repositories, in the later versions of debian it does not exist, as we can read in its description:
-
This is a transitional package, replacing the OpenOffice.org packaging with the LibreOffice packaging.
It can be safely removed after an upgrade.
—
In Debian Testing:
sudo aptitude search openoffice
p docvert-openoffice.org
v libming-fonts-openoffice
p libopenoffice-oodoc-perl
p openclipart-openoffice.org
p openoffice.org
p openoffice.org-base
p openoffice.org-calc
p openoffice.org-common
p openoffice.org-dmaths
p openoffice.org-draw
p openoffice.org-dtd-officedocument1.0
p openoffice.org-emailmerge
p openoffice.org-evolution
p openoffice.org-filter-binfilter
p openoffice.org-filter-mobiledev
p openoffice.org-gnome
....
the package name exists, but it is not openoffice itself, but to be passed to libreoffice
from debian testing:
aptitude show openoffice.org
Package: openoffice.org
New: yes
Status: not installed
Versión: 1:3.4.0~ooo340m1-7
Priority: extra
Section: editors
Developer: Debian LibreOffice Maintainers
Architecture: all
Uncompressed size: 121k
Depends on: libreoffice
Description: office productivity suite
This is a transitional package, replacing the OpenOffice.org packaging with
the LibreOffice packaging.
It can be safely removed after an upgrade.
Homepage: http://www.openoffice.org
MMM. It's true .. My mistake ..
http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/openoffice.org
I looked, from what I've been reading, at the moment there is almost nothing written. In other words, Mir is basically non-existent and as the author of this blog says, you shouldn't cry out to heaven for something that doesn't exist yet.
http://shnatsel.blogspot.com.ar/2013/03/yet-another-opinion-on-mir-you-never.html
Most likely, those at Canonical realize the unrealistic decision they made midway through and end up using Wayland or what android uses (or some fork of them)
By the way Has anyone tried wayland ??
Here are the instructions for arch linux
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Wayland
Try to compile it into chakra but the new table version is needed for weston. What caught my attention was how small the packages were. I wonder how many resources they will spend.
Android has its own graphical server to run the applications and nobody says anything.
Ubuntu wants its applications to work on an ubuntu cell phone and on the ubuntu pc, so you make the app for one of them and since they both use mir, they both use qt / qml, so the process of porting that application between systems is greatly simplified.
To achieve this, neither X.org nor Wayland works, so the logical thing is to make your own version of something. It is what is done in this world. If you don't like something, change it or do it yourself. That's what Ubuntu does and what all distros do.
regards
Totally agree, they have a problem with Ubuntu phone, Xorg, their drivers and their slowness compared to Android, they take the good of Android - and above all they make it compatible with drivers - the good of Wayland and they do something that works for them.
Those of Wayland, who are very slow, get angry because they see that they are going to eat the ground, especially since they are compatible with Android controllers. Who is going to want to invest in good controllers exclusively for Wayland?
If Wayland wants to triumph over Mir, it must also become compatible with Android controllers or start with a lot of disadvantage even with Xorg or be devilishly better than Mir, which they themselves doubt.
On the other hand, just as Android mods are installed, advanced Linux users will install other distros, which will take advantage of the pull of ubuntu phone, and the GNU / Linux world if Ubuntu phone triumphs among the general public, which I hope will be a great beneficiary, even if it is to use other distros such as Manjaro or Sabayon.
+1
elav has not published an article on advantages and disadvantages of wayland compared to xorg? I am not very knowledgeable on these issues and frankly I know little about the importance of this issue in the future.
I'm not really very knowledgeable about these issues either .. We would have to look ..
Wayland's architecture is much simpler and less chaotic than X11. That is because X11 was thought for the era of large computers (not PCs) for multiple users, so it brings a lot of abstractions in its API. Instead Wayland is designed for the current era, where there will only be one user interacting graphically with the PC.
This means that in the future, it is simpler to maintain that code, and that in general, as there are fewer layers in the API, it is a little faster.
http://wayland.freedesktop.org/architecture.html
Each and every one of them hits Ubuntu for a different reason. In this particular case, certain strategic decisions of Canonical and some of their sayings were the triggers for so much sour response from the F / LOSS world - perhaps if they had raised the issue without so much arrogance, the story would have been different.
Regardless of what is said about Ubuntu, there is an objective and irrefutable truth: it is the only distribution that can really compete with Windows and MacOS in terms of hardware recognition, peripherals and OOTB experience (Mint does not count because it is basically a tuned Ubuntu) .
Today that I am away from the professional activity related to the adm. of sist. I find it FRUSTRATING that running devices like local printers or scanners -that is, connected directly to the PC- or via the network is still an adventure that requires hours of trial and error and technical reading to solve.
The potential of GNU + Linux is impressive but if there is no willingness to decide to build a distribution that is USABLE OOTB then it is just that, a lot of potential that can be exploited in certain niches.
Ubuntu is the only distro to which I can connect anything and I know it will recognize it, the same if I want to interconnect machines in homogeneous GNU + Linux or heterogeneous networks.
Ok, the extreme simplicity of GNOME applications is sometimes frustrating but at least they _work_.
Sancho barks, signal that we advance!
But what is hardware recognition, doesn't the kernel? and printers are handled with cups. Let's say that it has little to do with Ubuntu
The other day I bought a wacom tablet, I connected it to opensuse, and to draw ... I have connected everything (a play2 controller, 2 hp multifunction printers with scanners, a guitar via a USB connector ..) and I'm still waiting for the moment that let me down. I could say that I can connect anything to openSUSE and I know that it will recognize it to me .. what I will never say is that it is the only distro that does it, something that people who use Ubuntu do not stop saying, usually without contributing any test (it is the easiest, it is the one that recognizes the most things, it is the one that best washes my clothes ...).
Does your comment denote a second-tier complex? Because although openSUSE has existed for longer than Ubuntu, this latest distro is on everyone's lips while openSUSE is circumscribed to a much smaller circle.
Responding to your comment, openSUSE is a distro that also has very good HW and peripheral support. since it is a distribution aimed at the business sector from the beginning where everything must work.
Fedora has also made great strides lately in the field of printers, although it has yet to add support for many other peripherals.
Not really. If you are too lazy to read manuals, simply download all the distros you can find and test how many of them "only the kernel" and "the cups installation" detect your peripherals.
Well, I thought you knew a lot about everything, but it seems that you don't know that Hardware compatibility depends on the Kernel, yes, on the Linux Kernel, the one that Ubuntu DOES NOT NAME on its website, and to which it contributes little, yes not rather modify a little to your liking.
Mir is a bitch, you should read the posts of prominent developers, such as Aaron Seigo (on Google+) and Martin Gaëbler (on his official blog), and the discussion between them and Uncle Mark.
And I would also recommend reading "Ext4 Blog", there is a post in which Malcer explains very well what is happening with Mir, I would explain it to you myself, but you better stop by, see what you tell me.
Question:
If Ubuntu removes Xorg, its packages would only depend on Mir. Now, if someone who uses Debian or dumped and uses the Launchpad, GetDeb, or other repositories, then should they install Mir? And if the Debian or derived packages don't include it as an optional dependency (obviously it would break the Xorg dependency), couldn't you just use those sources?
The most logical thing is that they make a warper or something like that to wrap Mir and make it compatible with the X11 API. Losing backward compatibility on the desktop is stupid. Also, it is obvious that they put Mir for the Mobile market, I do not think that normal PC version users suffer in any way 😛
It's good that "despite all the regrets" the alternatives exist, and those of us who do not depend on Ubuntu to do our things daily, obviously we are not with Jesus in our mouths. " Now it turns out that we will all have to return to Ubuntu for things to work. Cheers
Congratulations for the post and everyone for the opinions…. I think this is the first time that I read about this topic with a bit of sanity. As mentioned, Ubuntu is hit by everyone, I've been hearing the same exaggerated criticism since it exists. Time is proving Canonical right, it is absolutely incredible where Ubuntu has arrived today, it has closed many mouths, but others always come out. It is absolutely historical that the first fully integrated operating system between devices is Ubuntu ... neither iOs ... nor windows, nor na de na ... whoever does not see how much ubuntu is pointing and of course the whole world of free software is that it does not give pa see it and of course they will not understand. Personally as a lover of free software by philosophy, I am enormously proud of what Ubuntu has achieved due to its incontestable results ... After taking a look at ubuntu mobile, I would tell the community that if they listened more to ubuntu, another rooster would sing to them. Many. Hats off to Canonical and of course long live freedom !!!
They are different aspects: it is not the same to compare a software with an infrastructure.
The problem with MIR and Wayland is that in order for these display servers to start up, all the software HAS TO BE REPORTED to these servers.
The problem that MIR could cause is that both display servers begin to be adopted independently, and incompatibilities begin to exist between the same penguin platform.
Ideally, the entire community would unify around Wayland to replace Xorg.
umm it will be that ubuntu in the end will stop being linux… .. suspicius …….
No, they would have to develop their own kernel and that will never happen
Impossible, it should start from scratch and they hardly give up as they have been working.